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Low SP Apocalypse L4 Setup

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Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 09:54:00 - [1] Ive been running through L4's with my Geddon and am just about to switch to a shiny new Apoc. With my current skills I found that the Geddons range was severely lacking with T1 Pulses, and switched to Megabeams which has made life much easier. So I was wondering what the best way to setup an Apoc should be? I have thought of a number of different possible setups and was seeking feedback from other players. One of the questions I need sorting out - does the range bonus of the Apoc give T1 megapulses enough dps at 50km to compete with megabeams at the same range? (Most BS fights I am in are between 35km-50km range - and Im currently unsure if the pulses can keep up with beams when the sniper bonus is taken into consideration). DISCLAIMER: I am not even close to using T2 guns yet so please dont put them into any suggested builds! ------------------------------- 'Standard' Mission Running: High: 6 x Modulated Tachyon, 2 x Arbalest Assault Launcher Medium: 3 x Cap Recharger II, 1 x Sensor Booster Low: 1 Large Carapice Repairer, 5 x Rat specific Hardener, 1 x CPR II Rigs: 1 CCC, 2 x Aux Nano Pump Drones: Mediums / Heavy as appropriate ------------------------------ 'Medium Tank' Mission Running (more buffer): High: 7 x Modulated Megabeams, 1 Arbalest Assault Launcher Medium: 3 x Cap Recharger II, 1 x Sensor Booster Low: 1 Large Carapice Repairer, 5 x Rat specific Hardener, 1 x 1600mm Tungsten Plate Rigs: 1 CCC, 2 x Aux Nano Pump Drones: Mediums / Heavy as appropriate --------------------------------------- 'Heavy Tank' Mission Running (even more buffer): High: 8 x Modulated MegaPulse Medium: 3 x Cap Recharger II, 1 x Sensor Booster Low: 1 Large Carapice Repairer, 4 x Rat specific Hardener, 2 x 1600mm Tungsten Plate Rigs: 1 CCC, 2 x Aux Nano Pump Drones: Mediums / Heavy as appropriate --------------------------------------- Thanks for any comments, Gotrek Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.07 10:32:00 - [2] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 07/04/2008 10:32:35 Thanks for that ship fit. My builds are still a little heavy on the tank as I only started running L4's this last weekend - and simply havent a clue about the relative difficulty of each one. The kill mission survival guide is a useful starting point but can only tell you so much in advance of actually trying it. I did at one point have a rather strange build for my Geddon involving 6 Megabeams with a 6 hardener, 20k Armor tank (85% resist) when I decided I would tank the first room in Recon (1 of 3) instead of doing the sensible thing and going through the first gate. I figure if I can manage to tank and kill 7 BS simultaneously in a Geddon then the Apoc should be capable of doing the harder L4's with little problem? Im know the Apoc has a much better tank in comparison to the geddon - but just how reliant is it on using Heat Sinks to get additional DPS? Will I have enough dps to break most BS tanks without the heat sinks? How much longer will missions take in comparison to my somewhat overtanked geddon?
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 12:19:00 - [3] Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban I hit every single time when they get in MF range with Tachs. I call BS on this one. If you wait until they are orbiting you at 15km, you're doing it wrong. Ive found that Tachs can sensibly be used to hit anything cruiser sized beyond 25km - PROVIDED that you always choose 'approach' to turn the ship at the target. That cuts down transversal velocity and gives your guns a much better chance of hitting (especially if your ship was previously turning or moving at an angle to the target). (Note: I tested this extensively over the weekend with my Geddon on L4's when I was comparing the dps of different guns and the likelihood of them hitting different targets at different ranges). In the 25km-35km bracket Tachyons wont always hit cruisers - even if turning the ship to face the target. Any closer than 25km and transversal velocity usually prevents tachs from hitting cruisers altogether. BC are also hard to hit with Tachs at less than 15km. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 14:01:00 - [4] Originally by: Lord WarATron A low skilled pilot wont have decent enough tracking skills to hit 100% of all mission cruisers with 100% of shots with tach. As the low SP pilot in question I definitely agree with this statement! Any targets past 35km I can hit most of the time with Tachyons (including frigates). But inside 35km I start having problems (as listed above). Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.07 16:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Lord WarATron Quick question, How many Tach can you fit with a harderned tank? You may be surprised but if you dont have advanced weapon upgrades, you might be doing less DPS with tach rather than a standard pulse setup. (due to crazy tach fitting requirements). I found on the Geddon that megapulses just dont have the range (44km with Radio) - and a lot of Sansha BS like to sit 50-55km away out of range. I switched from pulses to beams to solve this problem. However when I was messing around in my Geddon I tried fitting Tachs and was instantly going "OMFGWTF - I just 2-volleyed the targets shields!". The damage modifier for Modulated Megabeams with my skills is 4.5. The damage modifier for T1 tachyons is 6.18! So as long as the target is far enough away to guarantee hitting (35km-45km+) it then Tachyons seems a no brainer..... I can fit 6 Tachyons and still have PG and CPU left for the other modules - and with the relative dmg modifiers the 6 Tachs are equivalent to 8.5 Megabeams (even better if I get some named Tachs)! (I have BS IV, Engineering V, Electronics V, and most other support skills to 3 or 4) On Megapulses the extra 30% range bonus for BS IV will allow me to use Infrared out to 55km. However at this range (which is typical of a lot of L4 missions) without range enhancers this will give significantly less dps than the Megabeams or Tachs can do with Gamma. Pulses may rock out to 40km with the extra range bonus - but with my skill set I have a feeling Beams / Tachs will do way more dmg in most BS vs BS fights in L4's. Just my 0.000001 pence worth Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 12:36:00 - [6] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:42:27 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:39:39 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:39:17 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:37:17 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 12:36:57 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Take rate of fire into account thankyouverymuch. Raw dps from the Tachyons is about 7% more, but with range taken into account it's more like 10-15% more. Although a single tracking computer will compensate for the Tachyons range advantage (even without an optimal script). For missioning, if megabeams means that you can fit one extra gun or heatsink, then the megabeam setup is superior. End of story. With my current skills: Tachyon (Modulated) dmg modifier = 6.5 Megabeam (Modulated) dmg modifier = 4.5 Tachyon (ROF) = 12.5 sec (standard ROF) Megabeam (ROF) = 9 sec (standard ROF) Tachyon (ROF) = 8.8 sec (actual ROF) Megabeam (ROF) = 6.5 sec (actual ROF) As both get modified by the same % modifier due to skills and heat sinks the Megabeams fire 38% more shots in any given time than Tachyons. @50km Distance Tachyons use Multifreq (28 EM, 20 Therm), or Gamma (28 EM, 16 Therm) Megabeam use Ultra-Violet (24 EM, 12 Therm) DPS per turret calculation: DPS = Crystal Damage * Damage Modifier / Time per Shot Tachyon (Multifreq) = (28+20) * 6.5 / 12.5 = 24.96 dps Tachyon (Gamma) = (28+16) * 6.5 / 12.5 = 22.88 dps Megabeam (UV) = (24+12) * 4.5 / 9 = 18 dps Tachyons with Multifreq do (25/18) = 138% damage compared to Megabeams with UV; Tachyons with Gamma do (22.8/18) = 126% damage compared to Megabeams with UV; In both cases Tachyons with Multi / Gamma do at least 25% extra dps at 50km. Hence my original statement stands and I DO NOT FAIL :-) For reference with my skills megapulses at 50km do roughly HALF the damage of megabeams at the same distance. Edit: And sadly my weapon upgrades skill doesnt yet allow me to fit any more than 6 Tachyons or 7 Megabeams to my Apoc. Based on the figures calculated above the 6 Tachyons do more dps than the Megabeams would at 50km (range I tend to fight most BS at). Edit 2: Bah I cant spell.
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:09:00 - [7] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 14:10:34 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 14:08:48 A thought just occurred to me: Using the basic differene in damage modifiers Tachyons will ALWAYS deal 44% extra damage over Megabeams per shot. However, based on ROF Megabeams will ALWAYS fire 38% faster using the same ship fit. 44% dmg bonus from Tachs > 38% ROF bonus from Megabeams Therefore Tachs will ALWAYS out-damage Megabeams at ANY range if both are using an appropriate set of crystals. This means that even if you fit a tracking enhancer to extend the range of Megabeams the Tachyons will still rule for pure dps. However, you are paying a heavy price for the extra damage through 50% additional cap use for Tachyons - so its a case of sustained dps against sustained cap use. Edit: Minor reword for clarification.
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel Which means that you fail. Hard. Or not, as WITH MY SKILLS these are the crystals with optimals closest to 50km - which I was using as my example distance. At other distances the exact gap will vary - but is still likely to be in the range of 20-25%. Also see my post above, as to why tachs will always be my choice over beams. They do 44% more dps per shot but fire 38% slower. They also out-range megabeams by quite a way, allowing higher dps crystals to be used further out. Difference between crystal tiers ~20% of MODIFIED optimal. With my skills tachs have an optimal of 65km, and megabeams of 55km. So the only time the difference will be a single crystal tier will be when 20% of the modified optimal is LESS than the difference between UNMODIFIED optimals (65-55) = 10km. I.e. only for Multi (tachyons) versus Gamma (Megabeams). In most other cases the difference in optimal will fall between tach/megabeam crystal sets, and the further you go past 40km the more it will favor Tachyons. Even taking your figure of 6 tachs = 7 megabeams I still have the problem of NOT BEING ABLE TO FIT more than 6 tachs or 7 megas anyway. And which would you rather have? Something with the same dps and low alpha, or something with much higher alpha that can significantly out-range the other setup for good measure?
Gotrek Gurnisson Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:50:00 - [9] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 17:50:53 Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 08/04/2008 17:50:40 Thanks for that setup. Question to everyone - what skills do I need to get enough PG to fit 8 Megabeams or 8 Tachyons on an Apoc? Presumably Engineering V and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V? My Apocs total PG atm is 25000 - which automatically rules out 8 of either turret as I also need to fit a repper somewhere! ------------------------- As the trolls were pointing out 'flaws' in my maths I decided to plot out my dps against range out in Excel to show everyone: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0804/Crystal_DPS_Chart.JPG WITH MY CURRENT SKILLS - Above 45km Tachyons start to do significantly more dps than Megabeams. ------------------------- Here is the chart of Tachyon DPS as a percentage of Megabeam against range: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0804/Tachyon_as_Percentage.JPG I will concede to the maths troll that below 45km the difference is minimal using the best crystal for the range. ------------------------- NOTE: Im ignoring falloff damage as the maths would start to get messy - but as that will affect megabeams more as they have a smaller falloff then it will also probably favor Tachyons.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.09 07:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Shannon DeBruce Considering fitting an Apoc for Lvl 4 missions with less than perfect skills, IMHO the mids are an afterburner and three cap rechargers; the lows have a large armor repairer, three rat-specific armor hardeners (two for primary, one for secondary), two heat sinks, and you have to decide based on your situation between a Reactor Control Unit or a third heat sink. Rigs are three capacitor control circuit I's. After a bit of equipment switching I did end up with more or less the mids and lows you suggested - with the minior difference of dropping one heat sink for a DCU II (still finding my feet on missions and want to guarantee I dont get out of my depth too quickly). I have tried using 7 Megabeams + Missiles, as opposed to 6 Tachyons + 2 x Missiles - and with my skills and 2 heat sinks the Tachyons will hands down every time past 45km. It may be the wrong way of fitting an Apoc (remember me previous ship was a Geddon so I got used to fitting for gank first) - but it eats BS sized targets much faster than the megabeams can on almost all of my missions (due to fighting most BS at 50-60km where tachs do significantly more dps). I have yet to fit any rigs - so will have a good play in EFT to try different things, and see if there is any way to squeeze that 8th megabeam onto the ship. If I can do that I will switch to megas. But as things currently stand my skills dont quite support fitting the Apoc the way it was intended - with 8 turrets! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Gotrek Gurnisson	Posted - 2008.04.09 07:33:00 - [11] Edited by: Gotrek Gurnisson on 09/04/2008 07:34:53 Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel How on earth do you end up with those figures while using beams with the same Meta value? I've tried it out with all sorts of combinations and whenever Tachyons reach out to 65km the equal meta value beams reach out to roughly 59km. So somewhere you have to be using some sort of failmath. Chances are I misread the number as at 1800 x 1440 its really small text . However, even allowing for the difference between beams and Tachs being only 7km - my original point still stands. For distances where 7km is 12.5%% or less of the optimal the dps will be roughly the same as you can stick with one tier difference and still get similar dps. (I used 12.5% as thats the difference in range modifier for all crystals below standard). 7km / 0.125 = 56km. I.e. for all distances above 56km the difference in crystal sets will be two tiers - which is reflected in the graphs I linked earlier. Its only at distances of less than 56km you can stick to the same - or one tiers difference. And of late all my missions have been at 50km-80km range (e.g. Worlds Collide room 1 which I cleared last night). Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel As for "why would you want a fitting with the same DPS and lower alpha"? Maybe because it has better tracking and better cap requirements (much better cap requirements in fact)? I havent yet found a mission where I ran out of cap using 6 Tachs. At worst I get down to 40% cap. With my current skills the NPC dps is either a) much lower than my repair rate so I dont need to perma-run the repper, or b) much more than a single repper can cope with - which usually means warp-outs anyway before I run out of cap. I havent yet found any missions where the dps was roughly equivalent to my repair rate - and its only these sorts of missions requiring perma-running that would cause me grief cap-wise. I will happily admit In a noob at flying Amarr Battleships, and my SP are still low-med to where they should be - but considering Ive quite happily cleared Recon 1 of 3 (tanking 7 BS + support) in my geddon - and (fingers crossed) havent come close to losing any of my ships then I must be doing something right BTW - simply saying "You Fail" doesnt exactly help anyone asking for advice on the forums. At least try include some sort of constructive advice rather than pointing out whats wrong. Try explaining why its wrong - and what they should do about it (as the other replies have done). Thanks for all the advice guys/gals. I have already changed my current/planned ship fit to include some of your suggestions. Next thing to work out using EFT is how many CCC rigs I need to buy Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

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